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Post by Ramz on May 18, 2005 18:25:21 GMT -5
shiretrust (the `Shire Supporters Trust) are campaigning against the proposed new SFL rule that if a club finishes bottom of div 3 for 2 years in a row it is demoted to an associate member, if it then finishes bottom for a futher 2 years it is expelled from the SFL and is no longer a senior Scottish football club. We believe that this proposed rule (on the SFL`s agenda for its AGM on Friday 27th May at Hampden) is being brought forward to deal with just one member club - East Stirlingshire F.C. It is an attempt to either force it to compete realistically in the 3rd division or, failing that, to rid the SFL of a source of embarrasment (`Shire abusing/ taking advantage of the fact that there is currently no relegation from the 3rd division). We would be seriously concerned that if the `Shire were expelled from the SFL our club would simply dissappear
shiretrust asks the SFL to resist the temptation to `tinker with the bottom end of the league` in this attempt to influence or punish one club. Instead we want them to look at the bigger picture, take positive action and participate with the SFA in a total re-organisation of Scottish Football to establish one large pyramid structure that would include all Scottish Football clubs and put one body in overall charge of it. In such a structure there would be a place for any club in Scotland, be they 1st division, ameteur or Junior and they would be allowed to find their level, either to filter down to a regional level or to rise to national level. We ask those in charge of Scottish football not to exclude clubs but to take responsability and include EVERY club.
shiretrust wants to hear YOUR views on this - it does`nt matter if you are a trust member, supporters club member, a `Shire supporter (but neither of the previous), a fan of another club or a football fan of any kind from any country - your views are welcome!
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Post by twinkle on May 18, 2005 22:12:11 GMT -5
Well put Ramz but don't you think that we would go out of existence anyway if we were to go any further down from where we are now?
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Tam Ward club member
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Post by on May 19, 2005 2:47:29 GMT -5
The solution to this is not to finish bottom again.
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Post by Ramz on May 19, 2005 3:57:54 GMT -5
Well put Ramz but don't you think that we would go out of existence anyway if we were to go any further down from where we are now? That depends on the details of any new set up. In a proper pyramid structure a club going down the way would have to adjust its gate prices and players wages according to the new level - this may conversely help get more people in if, say, it cost £3 or £4 to see a `Shire game. Obviously there is no point in having a pyramid set up if relegation down a level is seen as a death sentence for your club and I would hope that the money that is given to league clubs at the moment by the SFL each year would be shared out at all levels and in fact increased to benifit ALL levels of football. In that situation relegation to a lower level would result in a slight drop in money given to the club but going down the way may well bring you into a regional league set up thus saving some travelling costs as well.
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Post by Ramz on May 19, 2005 4:25:54 GMT -5
The solution to this is not to finish bottom again. That is true Stewart. It is a fact that our current manager has done a good job bringing us back from the edge of a real credability crisis as a 3rd divison football club. Although we all have reasonably realistic hopes that we can finish 2nd bottom or higher next season we honestly do not know if it will happen or not. There is a risk factor in simply hoping we can compete enough next season to get off the bottom - what if we don`t? What if after a reasonably close call next time, say we finish 5 points adrift at the bottom, the manager decides he has improved the team but has gone as far as he can with the current restrictions our club puts on him (no reserve or youth teams, the infamous £10 wage limit, no signing on fees, bonuses dependant on sponsors - at the moment it is unknown if Littlewoods will be with us next season or not). He has proved that he has some skill as a manager in his time at the club and it would not be too surprising if another league club wanted to give him a job. Where would that leave us? With 3 years to go before getting kicked out of the SFL, needing to get another manager that is at least as effective as this one, have him bring in players he wants to mould his team - say you give him that year to get things together and we finish bottom again. That would then be 2 years to go and the pressure is on - appointing the wrong or even a `not quite right` manager in that circumstance could be disasterous. I would rather we talk about this now when this will probably be voted on at the SFL AGM next Friday than cross my fingers and hope - remember this is the `Shire, things don`t always go the easy way!
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Post by VarisIan on May 19, 2005 10:33:55 GMT -5
I agree with Stewart36, the answer is not to finish bottom again next season. I think the league are right to think about the suitability of league membership of a team continually finishing bottom and with a board intent on not doing anything to attempt to improve the situation. I think it is harmful to the future of Scottish football to let this situation persist. My arguement is not with the league for wanting to change the rules, and I accept that a proper pyramid sysytem should be set up before a team is relegated, by whatever means, from the third division, but with the board and in particular with the chairman of the Shire as it is his duty as a director of the club to do everything in his power to improve the club both on and off the football pitch. shiretrust should not lose sight of where the root of Shire's problems lie.
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Post by Dodger on May 19, 2005 14:09:33 GMT -5
Re-election seems to be the easy way out for the SFL. It can't be denied that at the moment those running the club are basically taking the p**s but there has to be some more constructive way of dealing with it. Like Ramz said what happens to us if we do get kicked out of the league? What league would we go to? The ideal situation would be for there to be some vetting procedure of people getting involved in football clubs in order to prevent people like Mackin getting into the game in the first place.
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Post by Strumps on May 19, 2005 16:00:13 GMT -5
Currently there is no local viable league for any team in the Central belt, South of Scotland and Tayside to go if a club loses it's league status. So lets assume the SFL get their act together and form a pyramid for the unlucky club to drop down to within the next 2 or so years. What will happen ?
1) A major sponsor will come on board to support the league ? 2) The other clubs within the league will have to be financially stable given that as they will be under the control of SFL their ground will have to satisfy not only the standards of SFL but meet the local authority regulations. Very simply put the clubs now playing at a higher "conference" level will have to install floodlights, turnstyles, increase the size of their pitch and upgrade the ground safey structures to meet heath & safety requirements and then.. increase admission costs and player wages to cover covers. Will they be able to take their fans with them ?
I could go on. The main thing is that no Shire fan is against a proper reoganisation of the SFL and levels below but it must just that for whatever unfortunate club which moves out of the league to have somewhere to go and regroup. Certainly an idea onto which a plan is gradually built would be a nonsense especially it was created by parties with no experience of 3rd Division/ top non league level football club adminstration.
One final thing. Just how many clubs are 1) wanting to become part of SFL 2) in a position to become part of SFL ?
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Post by Gull on May 19, 2005 18:47:36 GMT -5
It is often seen as a major problem of any possible Scottish `Pyramid` system that many clubs seem to be quite happy where they are and do not want to join any national league set up - I am, of course, thinking of Junior clubs here.
In the last 5 years there has been a total of 3 places in the SFL in division 3 up for grabs (they went to Gretna, Peterhead and Elgin) and in that time NO junior clubs applied to join the Scottish league. It is seen by them as a risk changing their current set ups - there are many `big` junior clubs who are well supported, charge no more than about £4 entry, do good business from their social clubs and have a good chance of either winning something locally or doing well in some cup or other (there seem to be millions of cups at junior level!). The phrase `big fish in a small pond` has been applied here and the worry is if you take that `fish` and put it in a much bigger pond (swap a regional league with a national one) that `fish` suddenly does`nt seem so big after all and has to compete with lots of other `big fish`and life is`nt so easy any more. The fear of losing crowds when you are suddenly not winning most of the time, having to charge your punters more to cover costs (install/ modify floodlights, alter pitch dimensions, build safety walls/ fences) are problems any junior team would face and ways have to be found to help them out with these obstacles or a pyramid will never happen.
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Post by wellibob on May 20, 2005 0:43:03 GMT -5
too heavy to read this after a night shift will read it again later
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Post by Ramz on May 20, 2005 12:02:12 GMT -5
Some good points there Varis. The shiretrust committee are not surprised that the SFL are now actively looking for a way to deal with the `Shire`s apparent deliberate non-competitiveness, we simply think that what is proposed is not the way to do it. The people in power at the `Shire just now are obviously not interested in running a football club (in fact it seems to be an inconvenience) - they would much rather be `estate agents` just concentrating on selling a piece of land - they are responsible for the whole `crisis` that has hung over the `Shire for the last 3 years.
The question I would ask of the Scottish Football League is this:- if you carry out your rule change and `Shire continue to finish bottom and are eventually thrown out of the league who suffers? It is the loyal supporters of East Stirlingshire F.C., players past and present, those who have some feeling for the club and anyone who simply wishes us well. Those who currently control the board (Alan Mackin, Alex McCabe and Douglas Morrison) will not even be inconvenienced if the club are forced out of the league, I am sure they would be quite happy to be in charge of a `company` called `East Stirlingshire f.c.` who did not play football but owned a bit of land near the middle of F*****k which they were trying to flog to the highest bidder.
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MrEd
Tam Ward club member
Posts: 13
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Post by MrEd on May 20, 2005 13:13:47 GMT -5
A lot of people here are missing the point. The reason why we must oppose re-election is because it is wrong for us. If the SFL introduces re-election then there is no doubt Shire are dicing with death in as little as four years. That may well be Mackin's fault but we should oppose every threat to the continued existence of East Stirlingshire F.C. wherever it comes from and, it seems clear, this motion being put before the Scottish League's AGM is one such threat. I fail to see how relegation through the pyramid structure would cast us into oblivion, Twinkle. At least the club would have security of membership of a league for the following season. Imagine being turfed out the SFL in May and having to scramble around, cap in hand, begging other leagues to take us in. What if the vote to expel us came AFTER the AGM's of all the leagues we could play in ? At best we would have to sit out a season without a team, at worst those in charge would just give up the ghost, the Shire would die, and as has been said earlier in this thread, East Stirlingshire would become a paper company interested only in selling Firs Park to the highest bidder. As for the pyramid itself, if every club at every level came together to form such a structure 99.99% of them would notice no difference to their current status. The only junior clubs who would require stands, bigger pitches and floodlights would be the ones who wanted to break out of their regional leagues into the national ones. But that would apply to all clubs, whether amateur, senior or junior playing below the top four divisions. Put simply, if you think it through, the creation of a pyramid not only makes sense but is a lot simpler to create than those who want to protect the status quo, and their own power bases, would want us to believe.
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Post by wellibob on May 20, 2005 17:00:54 GMT -5
still too heavy to read and make sense of it. I'm away to watch Bod
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Post by sandynimmo on May 22, 2005 16:04:10 GMT -5
You wonder if the SFL are particularly bothered where Shire go, if anywhere, supposing they went out of the league. Creating a pyramid system would be too much trouble for them in a world where self interest rules. We should have one body running the whole of Scottish football, covering the SFA, SPL, SFL, juniors, amateurs etc. Even youth football is all over the place. The Scottish Football Body should then ask for applications from teams who wish compete at Professional Level (although they could still be amateur clubs). Clubs would need to meet certain standards i.e. an enclosed ground with safe spectating facilities, correct pitch dimentions etc. Directors would require to have a licence to be able to run a club. If the SFB deemed those in charge to be acting against the interests of the club or Scottish football they would have their licence removed. All those clubs meeting the requirements would be accepted in to the pyramid system. Other clubs could still be part of the system but could not be promoted to Professional Level until they met the requirements.
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Post by VarisIan on May 26, 2005 9:56:07 GMT -5
This has certainly been the most sensible thread we've had for sometime, no doubt somebody will soon change that.
I agree with lots that has been posted in this thread.
I also agree that the SFL and the SFA are the bodies to whom East Stirlingshire are currently affiliated. The SFA have overall responsibility for Scottish Football and the SFL are responsible for the league structure below the SPL. It is these 2 bodies who have to look after the welfare of their member clubs of whom the Shire are one and, therefore, they have a responsibility, as long as the Shire remain in existence and comply with the rules, to ensure that Shire have a proper league structure to play in.
I couldn't agree more taht the Scottish game structure is a mess and also it is self interest of the few that ensures that this mess continues.
It is this messy structure together with Mackin and Co's indifference to the survival of the Shire that makes the threat of re-election so dire.
I repeat that the only short term answer is not to finish bottom of the league next season. We can't expect any help from the league nor our board in this.
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